Three days ago, I was discussing with my wife and some lady friends how guys are expected, and even rewarded, for their youthful sexual experimentation and sexploits. Girls or ladies are simply shamed as slutty. Such double standards! Thank you for your vulnerability and honesty in sharing this.
Certainly there is something wrong with promiscuity! Do you not realize how much Hurt has been caused, how many lives it has destroyed and killed? Do you seriously believe the so called “joy” derived from promiscuity has been more than the Hurt? Promiscuity is HurtFul!!!!
Whole families can be torn apart by it whether by the children or by the parents. Promiscuity doesn’t necessarily stop at a young age. It often times carries on into Adulthood and Marriage. It can, and often does, skew the person’s view of what Sex should be like. It can lead to disease that maims, kills, and/or renders one unable to have children, even donate blood. It can lead to Abortion, which, of course, is the destruction of Human Life, and can lead to a lifetime of Regret and Guilt. This list can go on for quite awhile. To say there is Nothing wrong with Promiscuity is at the least Short Sighted, at the Worst is Dangerous if one passes such advice along to other people, particularly young people. Certainly there is Harm in Promiscuity.
Many STIs are hurtful. I don't recall reading about them in this piece. The thing is not everyone who is promiscuous gets them. But I don't think that's what Bud is necessarily referring to although I could be wrong.
Um no, there is everything wrong with promiscuity and double standards. Sure people shouldn’t be ashamed to be sexually active, but most people especially from the writers POV act based on trauma response or a way to want to be loved. The writer was 13 years old. So no, we won’t normalize that or being “passed around” and label it as sexual freedom. Any reasonable person won’t “buss it” open for every person they encounter. Instead of encouraging both double standards culture and promiscuity, we should challenge the root causes so none of it would even be a discussion in the first place.
No, double standards are not wrong when they are being applied to things which are, in fact, different. The skills and lessons which girls need to learn at puberty - how to manage the fact that society highly values and rewards female beauty, how to think about and handle fertility issues, etc. - are worlds different from the skills and lessons boys need to learn - how to control their desires and energy, how to deal with the fact that society will not value them for what they are, but instead what they do and can produce.
I was just going to say "what double standards" for girls! I remain with my take on so much of sexuality...sex is vastly over-rated. Sold, hammered, taught, yelled..and vastly over-rated. I was quite rowdy in youth, had lots of sexual partners and that is what I write a lot about in my own Stack. Think first, before you "get busy". There are repercussions...
It can seem like there was nothing important, after the hormones shift. Good thing most people have a period of their life during which it is important!
Well, without sex, there would be no human race. I was speaking about the seeming obsession with sexuality in our modern world. Sex is part of life, not the whole thing. I lived it in my youth long ago (promiscuity) and deeply regret it and write much about "what not to do", for the benefit of those after me. There is also faith in God and His Son, family and friends, art, music, drama, entrepreneurship, education and learning (both school and self-learning), science, farming, animal husbandry and care of critters, care of the land, small business enterprises and a myriad more.
Tql, no, the sex I had in youth was awful and "ashamed" is not the word I would use, but rather that the actions I took were not wise. I had political identity, as my early youth was surrounded by the Vietnam War and one of my brothers was killed in that war in 1968. As I said, sex is only one part of life, not the entire thing. Nothing to be obsessed with. Others can certainly follow what they want. I will stick to the difficult lessons I learned and repairing the damage I did to myself. I have been celibate a long time and intend to continue. Again, this applies to me, not to everyone. W.E.W.
Huh? He initiated sex, took her virginity, and gave her no affection or care after. It’s not her fault his family put the religious whammy on him. He’s still responsible for his own decisions and clearly doesn’t regret it if he’s still contacting her all these decades later.
From her writing - and this is the difference you guys seem understand as she did on a primal level (because you know how to use it) but you refuse to admit it on an intellectual level - she held all of the sexual power over him.
She could make him go crazy for her by simply crossing and uncrossing her legs. He didn't have that power over her.
Her writing is of realising she has this power over boys and wanting to learn how to wield it.
Meanwhile, a similarly aged boy's diary would be about how they can't stop thinking about sex and about the myriad of things he's willing to try to release the constant sexual frustration.
This is why there's a "double standard". Because boys and girls are not the same.
Why does there have to be a predator from your pov? No one was preying on anyone in this story. A couple of pubescent teens made a mutual decision to go off and fool around. Happens every day.
She did the four pump chump dirty? Do you think that she dragged him into the woods by his hair? You’re just jealous that he got four pumps, and you’re a two pump chump! Go back to Grindr!
Tom, I think that comment is uncalled for, although I understand that you were triggered by Augustin. So was Augustin(e)'s unnecessary attempt at a slut-shaming comment (thereby supporting exactly the title of Lindsey's story). The boy crying in the leaves had a choice too, you know - and besides, he was probably wanking his way through his teenage-boy's life, fantasizing about a moment like that. He just really messed it up for Lindsey...
Youth groups are full of sexual promiscuity - as you call it - Augustin - only, it is done quietly and as hidden as possible. Mostly because "...god the heavenly (guilt-tripping) father..." and mommies and daddies who expect (demand?) that their children behave the way "life should be lived" in accordance with the laws of Moses, rather than loving and accepting them in the way they live and guiding them through all areas of their lives as best they can without shaming and guilt-tripping them. (My mum a guilt-tripper, just as a point of transparency here).
Tbh, I think that when the pharisees brought the "whore" caught in adultery to Jesus, hoping he would say she should be stoned according to the law of Moses, (and one of the versions says something about "he wrote in the dirt with his finger..."), he was writing the question "Where's the dude?" Or alternatively, was writing down the names of every hypocrite in attendance's own sexploits. Whatever he was writing, the end of the story is that he "shamed her not", to use Biblical paraphrasing.
Fact is, everyone lives out their sexuality differently - some have choice taken away from them (mostly girls/women) whereas the standards for male sexuality tend to be different in societies around the world - and more accepting of male sexual behaviour than female.
I think that we do best teaching our children (boys and girls) responsible and respectful enjoyment of their bodies - and the bodies of others - as and when they choose.
When Christ wrote in the dirt as the Pharisees were demanding the woman "taken in adultery", He told the woman "I do not judge thee." He also told her "Go and sin no more."
Apparently boys have no self-control and no personal accountability. It's HER fault he had sex with her s/. They were both 13 and learned lessons. Obviously no one told either about being cautious and not hanging out alone with the opposite sex.
He tried to contact me a few months ago, 30 years after the event. I am not interested in talking. I am a married woman and have no interest in rehashing the past with a man I had sex with 30 years ago.
Double standards abound in many areas. Men are expected to protect, to provide else serious shame too. It's all rooted in nature. Women carry the overwhelming burden of child bearing. Seen from that sexual difference and it makes more sense.
And women carry the sexual power. They can make men go crazy by "crossing and uncrossing their legs". Men will fight and kill each other to have sex with an attractive woman.
This is why there's more expectations put on girls when it comes to sex. Because they wield this power. The same way the expectation is for boys to stand up for themselves physically and they're seen as weak if they can't; because they have the power physically.
I think we need to find some balance where girls aren't shamed for making mistakes but are also taught to be aware of and responsible with this power they have over young boys, just like we teach boys they have to be responsible with the physical power they have over girls.
Consider that those who reward their males for their promiscuous sexual activity are thereby designating some females, the "whores and sluts," as throwaway trash not worthy of a decent life.
I know that male feminists can be slow but seriously, you have to sit back and think instead of just spouting whatever nonsense comes to your head. A double standard would be when one brother is allowed to chase girls while the other is shamed for the same behavior. But boys and girls are different - one gets the other pregnant, not the other way around. While the pill has liberated the sexual relationships, social expectations are formed over millennia because social cohesiveness depend on them.
That's because of the different roles that sex plays in the lives of the two genders. Sex is cheap for men and expensive for women. The risks and consequences are different. Our brains are evolved to experience it differently. Double standards aren't arbitrary or oppressive. They simply reflect the biological reality.
You're married and you don't understand WHY this is the case?! It's all rather simple. But it collapses the egalitarian liberal myth and so most would rather live in cognitive dissonance than be a warrior for truth, reality, and women.
It seems so 1950s. It's hard to believe such ridiculous beliefs are still around. I understand the US is backwards in such matters, but even if you believe as they did, there are less stupid ways of dealing with it.
I suppose that in the 1700s and 1800s, an appropriate response to this kind of insult would have been "Pistols at dawn, by the lake!" But nowadays I guess it is like "What exactly about any of my comments above makes me a disgrace to the Baker name?"
That’s so very kind of you. Thank you. Instead of buying me a coffee, you can go snag my book if you’d like—similar price point! I think you’ll love it. Thank you again for your very kind words.
Wow. I agree with the above comment—this is well written and I am furious at the double standard and how that affected you. As well as just the judgment and everything else. I’m glad you’re writing your story. Thank you. It’s great in that your voice is so powerful
They never complain about the double standard of men having to go to war and die while they stay cozy at home and other such things. Only the double standards that are inconvenient to them are the problem. The ones that benefit them are ok and welcome — and never talked about.
P.S. Nothing “brave” in all this one-sided story. Self-justification disguised as honesty. Technically well written, but utterly flat — no depth, no alternate angles, views, takes. Forget philosophy or evolutionary biology/psychology…
Of course! Thank you for writing your truth so bravely. Perhaps reading your writing yesterday fueled the piece I felt the need to come out today as they are in a similar vein of adolescent trauma / abuse.
Thanks Lindsay for sharing your intimate story with us. It takes enormous courage to put yourself in front of others.
And what an opening line:
"I tried to kill myself when I was thirteen after Daddy caught me with a dick in my mouth."
I spent couple of minutes just to digest that.
I come from a totally different culture, but I can relate with your story how we treat our sons and daughters differently. As a new parent myself, I have learned something valuable.
Such beautiful writing. I’m English and American and grew up in the South (Georgia) and the South has a lot to answer for for shaming women and sexuality but also inviting it to happen.
“Each bus ride to and from school, I’d cross and uncross my legs, hypnotizing him with a spell I didn’t understand, inciting within him a longing he couldn’t name. He French-kissed me at the bus stop, leaving crumbs from a PopTart on my chin.”
Not sure why I’m bothering replying because Substack is meant to be a KIND space but if you read the piece it contrasts how she is held accountable (i.e. unfairly punished) versus how her brother is treated for the same actions.
As far as welfare, single mother are hardly rewarded when their partners or spouses (who are men) leave them in a system where men unfairly make more than women and therefore even if they do work they’ll barely make enough to cover expenses and childcare all because a MAN chose to leave and didn’t get held accountable for creating a child and leaving it. Women have no choice but to be responsible and care for their offspring let some men have this narrative that that sort of life is a reward? I doubt anyone considers welfare poverty a reward?
Men have never created a world to benefit women. Some have, those who are allies to women, but few compared to those who don’t. Sigh.
I live in the UK which values women and human rights unlike the US. I also am married, educated, and child free and earn a decent living for myself.
I don’t exactly get what your point is here and why you’re so angry at strangers on the internet?
I would be afraid to raise my three daughters in the UK these days. Values women and human rights of the correct skin color, maybe.
Your point about welfare just goes to illustrate that there is indeed a much higher consequence tied to feminine sexuality. Fairness has nothing to do with it. And so, a raising that reflects this natural state of affairs, a raising that places a higher emphasis on feminine chastity, self control, however you want to say it —- no, it is not fair. But such a raising is aligned with reality.
I’m definitely not about policing women’s bodies or their sexual choices. Racism, unfortunately, exists everywhere and I grew up in the south in the US and I couldn’t imagine a less equitable place for people of colour so not exactly sure why you’d be afraid to raise your daughters in the UK but presumably are happy to raise them Stateside? The whole argument of female chastity reeks of patriarchy to me. Men are allowed to desire sex, chase it, have no self control, and not be accountable for their portion in creating babies but women should have a big old Scarlet Letter strapped to their chest if they dare make mistakes? What about women IN marriages with children who end up leaving violent or emotionally abusive partners? There are so many scenarios that play out in women’s lives that I think societally it’s our duty to give access to safe housing, food, healthcare, education, etc to all children and not punish women for their choices. Live and let live. I fully don’t understand why people seem angry at other people’s life choices (not saying you directly but in general). Don’t want to live that way? Great! Don’t! But don’t reprimand women who find themselves in those situations. I certainly wasn’t chase prior to marriage but equally I’m lucky I never got pregnant and thanks to how the world is don’t plan on having children as much as I’d maybe have wanted to have a child.
It’s so sad to hear how lonely and unloved you feel. Look to yourself to discover why you are so lonely, with so much hatred in your heart, rather than hating women.
Absolutely perfect. Thank you. The way women are disparaged for being sexual creatures is a great injustice in the world. It starts at home with our fathers as puberty transforms us from little girl to woman, just as your story describes. You are brilliant and powerful. Thank you for existing and writing about it! What a cultural document!
Oh my goodness, I am so sorry you were treated this way. Reminds me an awful lot of my childhood best friend - it's awful the way girls were treated when we were young, I only hope things have improved for the younger generations.
Your memoir is powerful, Lindsay. And, I share so much of your experience.
I remember being told I "smell like a french whorehouse" as a 6-year-old when I put on too much perfume. My grandmother told me that "you aren't going out of the house looking like a slut" when my jeans fit too tightly at 13. The small town I lived in shoved my childhood SA by my grandfather under the rug because "his parents are good people." Despite being an honors student, not drinking or drugging, I was kicked out of the house at 16 with a trash bag to live with a mother who'd left me to foster care when I was 4 because she couldn't escape her own abuse, trauma, and the mental illness that plagued her for her lifetime. At 17, found an easy way to make money on the peep show stage (with a fake I.D.) My body had never been mine before, I figured I might as well use it for my benefit then.
I have a story inside me working its way out. You inspire me with yours.
This was chilling, how the (Christian) shame culture and rejection towards women is exactly what pushes women into the things that Christian belief systems fear most. And they don't even realize they're the ones causing it...
Oh gawd yeah, Afghanistan was recently marked for... I forget, crimes against humanity? because women are not allowed to be seen (even their eyes) or allowed to look at a man they aren't related to. The west is scary but other places are still scarier for sure.
My retort: you have no idea of what what you're speaking of.- yes, I've lived both. How destructive the "wild side" is, to our children and communities.
So visceral! I remember distinctly feeling a lot of this growing up with 2 brothers as well. And just those internal thoughts at a young age, not fully being able to comprehend the hypocrisy. Thank you for sharing your story
I feel deeply disturbed that so many comments are speaking to “double standards” instead of the disturbing fact that children so young are having sex. That a young innocent girl has been brainwashed by toxic damaging beliefs, and her precious heart and innocence left unprotected and taken devastatingly young.
I'm so glad I could lend some inspiration to your story. It's well-written. Thank you for the mention, and I look forward to checking out your podcast. Thank you for sharing. <3
Three days ago, I was discussing with my wife and some lady friends how guys are expected, and even rewarded, for their youthful sexual experimentation and sexploits. Girls or ladies are simply shamed as slutty. Such double standards! Thank you for your vulnerability and honesty in sharing this.
Decent fathers do not praise their sons for such behavior, nor condone it.
Those who do were themselves victims of the Big Lie that promiscuity is ever good for any creature.
Grow up. There is nothing wrong with promiscuity. The only problem is double standards
Certainly there is something wrong with promiscuity! Do you not realize how much Hurt has been caused, how many lives it has destroyed and killed? Do you seriously believe the so called “joy” derived from promiscuity has been more than the Hurt? Promiscuity is HurtFul!!!!
How is it hurtful? Who gets hurt by it? Why is it hurtful?
Whole families can be torn apart by it whether by the children or by the parents. Promiscuity doesn’t necessarily stop at a young age. It often times carries on into Adulthood and Marriage. It can, and often does, skew the person’s view of what Sex should be like. It can lead to disease that maims, kills, and/or renders one unable to have children, even donate blood. It can lead to Abortion, which, of course, is the destruction of Human Life, and can lead to a lifetime of Regret and Guilt. This list can go on for quite awhile. To say there is Nothing wrong with Promiscuity is at the least Short Sighted, at the Worst is Dangerous if one passes such advice along to other people, particularly young people. Certainly there is Harm in Promiscuity.
Sounds like codependence, rather than promiscuity, is the problem.
Herpes lesions are quite hurtful Bill
Many STIs are hurtful. I don't recall reading about them in this piece. The thing is not everyone who is promiscuous gets them. But I don't think that's what Bud is necessarily referring to although I could be wrong.
Um no, there is everything wrong with promiscuity and double standards. Sure people shouldn’t be ashamed to be sexually active, but most people especially from the writers POV act based on trauma response or a way to want to be loved. The writer was 13 years old. So no, we won’t normalize that or being “passed around” and label it as sexual freedom. Any reasonable person won’t “buss it” open for every person they encounter. Instead of encouraging both double standards culture and promiscuity, we should challenge the root causes so none of it would even be a discussion in the first place.
Based on this story, what would you say the ‘root cause’ of early promiscuity here was?
And Bud wasn’t advocating for a *double* standard, but an equally strict one across both genders.
I never said he was?? I was trying to explain why the problem isn’t only double standards but both.
No, double standards are not wrong when they are being applied to things which are, in fact, different. The skills and lessons which girls need to learn at puberty - how to manage the fact that society highly values and rewards female beauty, how to think about and handle fertility issues, etc. - are worlds different from the skills and lessons boys need to learn - how to control their desires and energy, how to deal with the fact that society will not value them for what they are, but instead what they do and can produce.
So how many STDs have you contracted then?
You've been sold a western lie
Thank you very much for reading and sharing your thoughts.
I was just going to say "what double standards" for girls! I remain with my take on so much of sexuality...sex is vastly over-rated. Sold, hammered, taught, yelled..and vastly over-rated. I was quite rowdy in youth, had lots of sexual partners and that is what I write a lot about in my own Stack. Think first, before you "get busy". There are repercussions...
It can seem like there was nothing important, after the hormones shift. Good thing most people have a period of their life during which it is important!
Well, without sex, there would be no human race. I was speaking about the seeming obsession with sexuality in our modern world. Sex is part of life, not the whole thing. I lived it in my youth long ago (promiscuity) and deeply regret it and write much about "what not to do", for the benefit of those after me. There is also faith in God and His Son, family and friends, art, music, drama, entrepreneurship, education and learning (both school and self-learning), science, farming, animal husbandry and care of critters, care of the land, small business enterprises and a myriad more.
It doesn't seem to me like you are ashamed of the sex, but ashamed of lacking an identity outside of it in your youth
Tql, no, the sex I had in youth was awful and "ashamed" is not the word I would use, but rather that the actions I took were not wise. I had political identity, as my early youth was surrounded by the Vietnam War and one of my brothers was killed in that war in 1968. As I said, sex is only one part of life, not the entire thing. Nothing to be obsessed with. Others can certainly follow what they want. I will stick to the difficult lessons I learned and repairing the damage I did to myself. I have been celibate a long time and intend to continue. Again, this applies to me, not to everyone. W.E.W.
Missed the boy crying in the leaves, heart wrenched by disappointing his earthly and heavenly father, huh?
No. He still tries to contact me, though, thirty years later.
The point was that promiscuity clearly is not universally accepted when it is a male doing it, contrary to Baker's claim.
Independently: you did that boy dirty. I hope feel bad about that.
Huh? He initiated sex, took her virginity, and gave her no affection or care after. It’s not her fault his family put the religious whammy on him. He’s still responsible for his own decisions and clearly doesn’t regret it if he’s still contacting her all these decades later.
He was a child and so was she. That story is a tragedy for both kids. 💔
From her writing - and this is the difference you guys seem understand as she did on a primal level (because you know how to use it) but you refuse to admit it on an intellectual level - she held all of the sexual power over him.
She could make him go crazy for her by simply crossing and uncrossing her legs. He didn't have that power over her.
Her writing is of realising she has this power over boys and wanting to learn how to wield it.
Meanwhile, a similarly aged boy's diary would be about how they can't stop thinking about sex and about the myriad of things he's willing to try to release the constant sexual frustration.
This is why there's a "double standard". Because boys and girls are not the same.
Lol. Yeah he was totally acting like the predator here, instead of here. /s
Why does there have to be a predator from your pov? No one was preying on anyone in this story. A couple of pubescent teens made a mutual decision to go off and fool around. Happens every day.
Took her virginity? right. she didn't take anything of his or was not involved in the sex.
The Devil makes him do it:).
Dude. It’s not her fault that you’re still a virgin.
1. she wasn't a whore at this stage. 2. if you choose to engage with a 'whore' it is your fault for lacking discipline
She did the four pump chump dirty? Do you think that she dragged him into the woods by his hair? You’re just jealous that he got four pumps, and you’re a two pump chump! Go back to Grindr!
Tom, I think that comment is uncalled for, although I understand that you were triggered by Augustin. So was Augustin(e)'s unnecessary attempt at a slut-shaming comment (thereby supporting exactly the title of Lindsey's story). The boy crying in the leaves had a choice too, you know - and besides, he was probably wanking his way through his teenage-boy's life, fantasizing about a moment like that. He just really messed it up for Lindsey...
Youth groups are full of sexual promiscuity - as you call it - Augustin - only, it is done quietly and as hidden as possible. Mostly because "...god the heavenly (guilt-tripping) father..." and mommies and daddies who expect (demand?) that their children behave the way "life should be lived" in accordance with the laws of Moses, rather than loving and accepting them in the way they live and guiding them through all areas of their lives as best they can without shaming and guilt-tripping them. (My mum a guilt-tripper, just as a point of transparency here).
Tbh, I think that when the pharisees brought the "whore" caught in adultery to Jesus, hoping he would say she should be stoned according to the law of Moses, (and one of the versions says something about "he wrote in the dirt with his finger..."), he was writing the question "Where's the dude?" Or alternatively, was writing down the names of every hypocrite in attendance's own sexploits. Whatever he was writing, the end of the story is that he "shamed her not", to use Biblical paraphrasing.
Fact is, everyone lives out their sexuality differently - some have choice taken away from them (mostly girls/women) whereas the standards for male sexuality tend to be different in societies around the world - and more accepting of male sexual behaviour than female.
I think that we do best teaching our children (boys and girls) responsible and respectful enjoyment of their bodies - and the bodies of others - as and when they choose.
We all have opinions Rory. Yours and mine are diametrically opposed on this, but they’re still our own to have. Thank you for expressing yours.
When Christ wrote in the dirt as the Pharisees were demanding the woman "taken in adultery", He told the woman "I do not judge thee." He also told her "Go and sin no more."
We do not have to love and accept all behaviour.
We don't accept or support children having sex. We end it and cut it off.
Yes. How was that unclear to you?
Apparently boys have no self-control and no personal accountability. It's HER fault he had sex with her s/. They were both 13 and learned lessons. Obviously no one told either about being cautious and not hanging out alone with the opposite sex.
I mean, there is a reason she talks about wielding power over him and not the other way round.
Boys literally do have much less sexual self control than girls. That is why she's able to drive him crazy by simply crossing and uncrossing her legs.
That's why there's more expectations on girls, whether you agree with it or not, because they're the ones with the sexual power.
Lol. Yeah, that was totally the argument I put forth.
Hmm?
But you didn’t respond? Even after he’d wanted to contact you after a mental ward visit?
He tried to contact me a few months ago, 30 years after the event. I am not interested in talking. I am a married woman and have no interest in rehashing the past with a man I had sex with 30 years ago.
If it happened on a cruise ship, would he have cried for disappointing his seaworthy father?
Double standards abound in many areas. Men are expected to protect, to provide else serious shame too. It's all rooted in nature. Women carry the overwhelming burden of child bearing. Seen from that sexual difference and it makes more sense.
And women carry the sexual power. They can make men go crazy by "crossing and uncrossing their legs". Men will fight and kill each other to have sex with an attractive woman.
This is why there's more expectations put on girls when it comes to sex. Because they wield this power. The same way the expectation is for boys to stand up for themselves physically and they're seen as weak if they can't; because they have the power physically.
I think we need to find some balance where girls aren't shamed for making mistakes but are also taught to be aware of and responsible with this power they have over young boys, just like we teach boys they have to be responsible with the physical power they have over girls.
Consider that those who reward their males for their promiscuous sexual activity are thereby designating some females, the "whores and sluts," as throwaway trash not worthy of a decent life.
I know that male feminists can be slow but seriously, you have to sit back and think instead of just spouting whatever nonsense comes to your head. A double standard would be when one brother is allowed to chase girls while the other is shamed for the same behavior. But boys and girls are different - one gets the other pregnant, not the other way around. While the pill has liberated the sexual relationships, social expectations are formed over millennia because social cohesiveness depend on them.
Do you befriend drunks and whores?
Because men and women are different
Cuck
That's because of the different roles that sex plays in the lives of the two genders. Sex is cheap for men and expensive for women. The risks and consequences are different. Our brains are evolved to experience it differently. Double standards aren't arbitrary or oppressive. They simply reflect the biological reality.
You're married and you don't understand WHY this is the case?! It's all rather simple. But it collapses the egalitarian liberal myth and so most would rather live in cognitive dissonance than be a warrior for truth, reality, and women.
Rory never heard of the lock and key metaphor?
Can you guess why this came to be universally so (except maybe small remote tribes)?
It seems so 1950s. It's hard to believe such ridiculous beliefs are still around. I understand the US is backwards in such matters, but even if you believe as they did, there are less stupid ways of dealing with it.
I'm not aware of anyone expecting boys to sew their oats.
Maybe where you are but not where I am.
I suppose that in the 1700s and 1800s, an appropriate response to this kind of insult would have been "Pistols at dawn, by the lake!" But nowadays I guess it is like "What exactly about any of my comments above makes me a disgrace to the Baker name?"
This is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read.
Your story has left a mark on my soul.
I hope you consider adding a buy me a coffee link…I would and I am certain others would as well.
That’s so very kind of you. Thank you. Instead of buying me a coffee, you can go snag my book if you’d like—similar price point! I think you’ll love it. Thank you again for your very kind words.
do you have a vendor available that isn’t amazon? :)
Barnes and Noble carries the book as well: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/too-pretty-to-be-good-lindsay-byron/1138604404
Buy her book, you won't be disappointed. I read it last month and still can't get it out of my head.
You need to get out more
Wow. I agree with the above comment—this is well written and I am furious at the double standard and how that affected you. As well as just the judgment and everything else. I’m glad you’re writing your story. Thank you. It’s great in that your voice is so powerful
Appreciate you taking the time to read.
It's a double standard with a good reason behind it
Jesus Incel much….
They never complain about the double standard of men having to go to war and die while they stay cozy at home and other such things. Only the double standards that are inconvenient to them are the problem. The ones that benefit them are ok and welcome — and never talked about.
P.S. Nothing “brave” in all this one-sided story. Self-justification disguised as honesty. Technically well written, but utterly flat — no depth, no alternate angles, views, takes. Forget philosophy or evolutionary biology/psychology…
Meh.
Of course! Thank you for writing your truth so bravely. Perhaps reading your writing yesterday fueled the piece I felt the need to come out today as they are in a similar vein of adolescent trauma / abuse.
Moving and beautifully written. You were a child and didn't let anybody down - but you know that now.
I do know that. Thank you.
Thanks Lindsay for sharing your intimate story with us. It takes enormous courage to put yourself in front of others.
And what an opening line:
"I tried to kill myself when I was thirteen after Daddy caught me with a dick in my mouth."
I spent couple of minutes just to digest that.
I come from a totally different culture, but I can relate with your story how we treat our sons and daughters differently. As a new parent myself, I have learned something valuable.
Thanks
Thank you very much. I appreciate you relating despite our differences. 🙏💕
Such beautiful writing. I’m English and American and grew up in the South (Georgia) and the South has a lot to answer for for shaming women and sexuality but also inviting it to happen.
“Each bus ride to and from school, I’d cross and uncross my legs, hypnotizing him with a spell I didn’t understand, inciting within him a longing he couldn’t name. He French-kissed me at the bus stop, leaving crumbs from a PopTart on my chin.”
🫶🏻
Ah. Another survivor of a good old-fashioned Southern upbringing.
Damned if you do, but also damned if you don't.
Yep 🙈lots of things I loved about the south but certainly many things I didn’t!
Not sure why I’m bothering replying because Substack is meant to be a KIND space but if you read the piece it contrasts how she is held accountable (i.e. unfairly punished) versus how her brother is treated for the same actions.
As far as welfare, single mother are hardly rewarded when their partners or spouses (who are men) leave them in a system where men unfairly make more than women and therefore even if they do work they’ll barely make enough to cover expenses and childcare all because a MAN chose to leave and didn’t get held accountable for creating a child and leaving it. Women have no choice but to be responsible and care for their offspring let some men have this narrative that that sort of life is a reward? I doubt anyone considers welfare poverty a reward?
Men have never created a world to benefit women. Some have, those who are allies to women, but few compared to those who don’t. Sigh.
I live in the UK which values women and human rights unlike the US. I also am married, educated, and child free and earn a decent living for myself.
I don’t exactly get what your point is here and why you’re so angry at strangers on the internet?
I would be afraid to raise my three daughters in the UK these days. Values women and human rights of the correct skin color, maybe.
Your point about welfare just goes to illustrate that there is indeed a much higher consequence tied to feminine sexuality. Fairness has nothing to do with it. And so, a raising that reflects this natural state of affairs, a raising that places a higher emphasis on feminine chastity, self control, however you want to say it —- no, it is not fair. But such a raising is aligned with reality.
I’m definitely not about policing women’s bodies or their sexual choices. Racism, unfortunately, exists everywhere and I grew up in the south in the US and I couldn’t imagine a less equitable place for people of colour so not exactly sure why you’d be afraid to raise your daughters in the UK but presumably are happy to raise them Stateside? The whole argument of female chastity reeks of patriarchy to me. Men are allowed to desire sex, chase it, have no self control, and not be accountable for their portion in creating babies but women should have a big old Scarlet Letter strapped to their chest if they dare make mistakes? What about women IN marriages with children who end up leaving violent or emotionally abusive partners? There are so many scenarios that play out in women’s lives that I think societally it’s our duty to give access to safe housing, food, healthcare, education, etc to all children and not punish women for their choices. Live and let live. I fully don’t understand why people seem angry at other people’s life choices (not saying you directly but in general). Don’t want to live that way? Great! Don’t! But don’t reprimand women who find themselves in those situations. I certainly wasn’t chase prior to marriage but equally I’m lucky I never got pregnant and thanks to how the world is don’t plan on having children as much as I’d maybe have wanted to have a child.
🙄🙄🙄
I want to say thank you for not having children. You are doing a good work by not passing that toxic ideology on.
shut ur mouth
It’s so sad to hear how lonely and unloved you feel. Look to yourself to discover why you are so lonely, with so much hatred in your heart, rather than hating women.
“How easy it is to die.” Yes indeed.
What a piercing story 🖤
Thank you for reading. 💕
Absolutely perfect. Thank you. The way women are disparaged for being sexual creatures is a great injustice in the world. It starts at home with our fathers as puberty transforms us from little girl to woman, just as your story describes. You are brilliant and powerful. Thank you for existing and writing about it! What a cultural document!
Thank you so much for reading and commenting!
Oh my goodness, I am so sorry you were treated this way. Reminds me an awful lot of my childhood best friend - it's awful the way girls were treated when we were young, I only hope things have improved for the younger generations.
Thank you for the kind words. 💕 and thank you for reading.
Your memoir is powerful, Lindsay. And, I share so much of your experience.
I remember being told I "smell like a french whorehouse" as a 6-year-old when I put on too much perfume. My grandmother told me that "you aren't going out of the house looking like a slut" when my jeans fit too tightly at 13. The small town I lived in shoved my childhood SA by my grandfather under the rug because "his parents are good people." Despite being an honors student, not drinking or drugging, I was kicked out of the house at 16 with a trash bag to live with a mother who'd left me to foster care when I was 4 because she couldn't escape her own abuse, trauma, and the mental illness that plagued her for her lifetime. At 17, found an easy way to make money on the peep show stage (with a fake I.D.) My body had never been mine before, I figured I might as well use it for my benefit then.
I have a story inside me working its way out. You inspire me with yours.
This was chilling, how the (Christian) shame culture and rejection towards women is exactly what pushes women into the things that Christian belief systems fear most. And they don't even realize they're the ones causing it...
If you think that's bad, just wait for the Islamic shame culture or take over
Oh gawd yeah, Afghanistan was recently marked for... I forget, crimes against humanity? because women are not allowed to be seen (even their eyes) or allowed to look at a man they aren't related to. The west is scary but other places are still scarier for sure.
My retort: you have no idea of what what you're speaking of.- yes, I've lived both. How destructive the "wild side" is, to our children and communities.
At some point, you'll see that...I hope.
So visceral! I remember distinctly feeling a lot of this growing up with 2 brothers as well. And just those internal thoughts at a young age, not fully being able to comprehend the hypocrisy. Thank you for sharing your story
Thank you for reading.
I feel deeply disturbed that so many comments are speaking to “double standards” instead of the disturbing fact that children so young are having sex. That a young innocent girl has been brainwashed by toxic damaging beliefs, and her precious heart and innocence left unprotected and taken devastatingly young.
Yeah, this read was actually disgusting.
Lindsay this made me feel a lot of things and I’m not nearly a good enough writer to share it well enough to do this justice.
Thank you for sharing.
thank you.
I'm so glad I could lend some inspiration to your story. It's well-written. Thank you for the mention, and I look forward to checking out your podcast. Thank you for sharing. <3
That was an intense read, especially as a father of preteens. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for reading. 🙏💕
You know, I don’t think that was the message.